AVID:Requests for Comment/Availability proposals: Difference between revisions

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{{Archive top|Closing both proposals as '''passed'''. [[User:StarlightFantasy|StarlightFantasy]] ([[User talk:StarlightFantasy|talk]]) 14:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)}}
==Removal of the Availability tiers (Common, Extinct, etc.).==
==Removal of the Availability tiers (Common, Extinct, etc.).==
Hello hello. I am back with a rather broad RfC this time. Before I start telling why availability tiers should be removed, I will mention what they are in the first place.
Hello hello. I am back with a rather broad RfC this time. Before I start telling why availability tiers should be removed, I will mention what they are in the first place.
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===Support===
===Support===
#{{Support}} The Americentrism point is not explained, but it is true - western editors are quick to label a logo rare for not appearing a lot in western media, even if it's common elsewhere. [[User:Chloafifteen|Chloafifteen]] ([[User talk:Chloafifteen|talk]]) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} The Americentrism point is not explained, but it is true - western editors are quick to label a logo rare for not appearing a lot in western media, even if it's common elsewhere. [[User:Chloafifteen|Chloafifteen]] ([[User talk:Chloafifteen|talk]]) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
* I have now clarified that point in particular, as that one was definetly a rush job from me :P [[User:VPJHuk|VPJHuk]] ([[User talk:VPJHuk|talk]]) 20:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#: I have now clarified that point in particular, as that one was definetly a rush job from me :P [[User:VPJHuk|VPJHuk]] ([[User talk:VPJHuk|talk]]) 20:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} These are useless [[User:ForcedExcess26|ForcedExcess26]] ([[User talk:ForcedExcess26|talk]]) 19:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} These are useless [[User:ForcedExcess26|ForcedExcess26]] ([[User talk:ForcedExcess26|talk]]) 19:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} Very good points. [[User:DisneyInternationalFan|DisneyInternationalFan]] ([[User talk:DisneyInternationalFan|talk]]) 19:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} Very good points. [[User:DisneyInternationalFan|DisneyInternationalFan]] ([[User talk:DisneyInternationalFan|talk]]) 19:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
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#{{Support}} This needs to happen. We are not qualitipedia, and we should not just judge how "rare" a logo is based on our experience.[[User:Compooper|Compooper]] ([[User talk:Compooper|talk]]) 23:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} This needs to happen. We are not qualitipedia, and we should not just judge how "rare" a logo is based on our experience.[[User:Compooper|Compooper]] ([[User talk:Compooper|talk]]) 23:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}}. The tiers just aren't that professional anymore, and with another proposed change to the availability section, they're quite frankly, obselete. [[User:Eternity Media Group|Eternity Media Group]] ([[User talk:Eternity Media Group|talk]]) 00:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}}. The tiers just aren't that professional anymore, and with another proposed change to the availability section, they're quite frankly, obselete. [[User:Eternity Media Group|Eternity Media Group]] ([[User talk:Eternity Media Group|talk]]) 00:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}} To be honest, I never really cared for the tiers even back under our old name and never really used them since joining the wiki primarily because I never exactly knew how common or rare the logos I was adding to the wiki were. I absolutely agree with VPJ's points, especially on how subjective and Americentric the tiers feel. [[User:StarlightFantasy|StarlightFantasy]] ([[User talk:StarlightFantasy|talk]]) 02:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}} Per everyone else. Much needed for video games logos. [[User:Ashley Taylor|Ashley Taylor ft. Cure Finale (soulbond friend) and CW/RB (account manager w/ shared pet)]] ([[User talk:Ashley Taylor|talk]])
#{{Support}} per others. [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 05:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} I thought at first you would be removing the Availability section entirely, but after realising what it's really about, I guess it could work. [[User:Gilby1385|Gilby1385]] ([[User talk:Gilby1385|talk]]) 11:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} I usually have so much trouble using the availability tiers, so I can get behind this. [[User:Tabit|Tabit]] ([[User talk:Tabit|talk]]) 03:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} per above
#{{Support}}, although reluctantly. I had hoped to preserve these and get them to a better spot without taking them out, but if their removal must be the way forward - go right ahead. [[User:Solarstrike|Solarstrike]] ([[User talk:Solarstrike|talk]]) 03:09, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

===Abstain===
===Abstain===


===Oppose===
===Oppose===
*{{Oppose}} I do not think it is wise to consider removing the tiers at this point in time, it should be reconsidered and implemented only when the alternative is put into place, as otherwise plenty of pages will be left as blank. No need to jump the gun so early. [[User:LoganStuff|LoganStuff]] ([[User talk:LoganStuff|talk]]) 22:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} I do not think it is wise to consider removing the tiers at this point in time, it should be reconsidered and implemented only when the alternative is put into place, as otherwise plenty of pages will be left as blank. No need to jump the gun so early. [[User:LoganStuff|LoganStuff]] ([[User talk:LoganStuff|talk]]) 22:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
*{{Oppose}} If this happens to many supports, I better cry. [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 23:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} If this happens to many supports, I better cry. [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 23:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#: Would be a real shocker. [[User:SquidBoxing|SquidBoxing]] ([[User talk:SquidBoxing|talk]]) 09:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
*{{Oppose}} I think that's a rather poor idea. [[]]
#::So far, I'd say it isn't a shocker. [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 21:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
*{{oppose}} Definitely not trying to be sarcastic or anything but I will say this briefly by any point explained. I get the fact that centrism part makes sense, literally from a West perspective, I get that. But my simple question is... why not trying to be "not" centric? Also another comment, constant changes... I disagree on this part too cuz some pages need constant changes on description or variants, if not even that, editors can decide anything, they are the people who do research into the article. Again, great idea but kinda eh reasons. [[User:SquidBoxing|SquidBoxing]] ([[User talk:SquidBoxing|talk]]) 00:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} I think that's a rather poor idea. - Preceding unsigned comment by [[User:Daemonspudguy|Daemonspudguy]]

#: How so? [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 05:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#::@Trevor807 It turns out that these availability scarred my childhood, I would understand if this logo is rare to find or hard to find, and so on. I don't want them to be removed from the Wiki, I just think it's really silly and VERY silly to be considered "useless", i have no idea if they are going to be replaced by any, or in the near future until availability can be removed. [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 18:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#:::These availability scarred your childhood how? [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 21:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#::: ''I would understand if this logo is rare to find or hard to find, and so on.'' This is the reason [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 22:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#::::No, I mean the use of "scarred".[[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
#:::::@Trevor807 Why do you want to know? That reason was enough. [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 17:58, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{oppose}} Definitely not trying to be sarcastic or anything but I will say this briefly by any point explained. I get the fact that centrism part makes sense, literally from a West perspective, I get that. But my simple question is... why not trying to be "not" centric? Also another comment, constant changes... I disagree on this part too cuz some pages need constant changes on description or variants, if not even that, editors can decide anything, they are the people who do research into the article. Again, great idea but kinda eh reasons. [[User:SquidBoxing|SquidBoxing]] ([[User talk:SquidBoxing|talk]]) 00:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#: this oppose is built upon very half-baked reasoning itself. We can't enforce "not being americentric", whereas we can enforce the non-use of availability tiers. Furthermore, the criticism of the "constant changes" point acts like every single section is the same, when in fact, the fact that some sections are constantly edited should not determine whether another, completely different section should be constantly edited or not. [[User:Eternity Media Group|Eternity Media Group]] ([[User talk:Eternity Media Group|talk]]) 01:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#:: Per EMG. [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Oppose}} We've had these for ages, and these are a staple of AVID. [[User:Sonicfan19198282|Sonicfan19198282]] ([[User talk:Sonicfan19198282|talk]]) 08:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#: Just being a staple of the site doesn’t make them necessary. [[User:Eternity Media Group|Eternity Media Group]] ([[User talk:Eternity Media Group|talk]]) 08:34, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#: Per EMG, and I'd like to add that a lot of things were staples of CLG/AVID, and a lot of these staples will not be missed. [[User:Chloafifteen|Chloafifteen]] ([[User talk:Chloafifteen|talk]]) 17:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#: We got rid of factors and nicknames, which were also staples for years. How is this any different than getting rid of those? [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
===Comments===
===Comments===
# {{Comment}} Considering this RFC is making a major change to the wiki, it fails to consider several potential outcomes:
# {{Comment}} Considering this RFC is making a major change to the wiki, it fails to consider several potential outcomes:
* If the section only states the tier and nothing else, what will happen?
#* If the section only states the tier and nothing else, what will happen?
* Articles that fall under categories such as TV identifications and cinema trailers frequently fall under the above statement.
#* Articles that fall under categories such as TV idents and cinema trailers frequently fall under the above statement.
The issue is that by simply removing the tiers in the above cases, you will be blanking it and leaving empty space in the descriptions, which is obviously a violator of the "No blank sections" rule. That is where, if this proposal passes, then consider these ideas:
#:The issue is that by simply removing the tiers in the above cases, you will be blanking it and leaving empty space in the descriptions, which is obviously a violator of the "No blank sections" rule. That is where, if this proposal passes, then consider these ideas:
* You can't just replace them with "Seen on their releases" and nothing else. That would mean breaking the whole purpose of the section as stated in the tutorial guide.
#* You can't just replace them with "Seen on their releases" and nothing else. That would mean breaking the whole purpose of the section as stated in the tutorial guide.
* Moreover with the above, if the section does not state any examples, while considering that "Unknown" is a tier in the section, then use "It is unknown where this logo can be found".
#* Moreover with the above, if the section does not state any examples, while considering that "Unknown" is a tier in the section, then use "It is unknown where this logo can be found".
* Considering there was a proposal a year ago that made the section optional on television ID pages, remove it unless it states where specifically it can be found.
#* Considering there was a proposal a year ago that made the section optional on television ID pages, remove it unless it states where specifically it can be found.
Lastly, I want to comment on the "notable rarity" issue that has been floating on my mind since this proposal came to light. Well, we have the Legacy section, and there are plenty of articles that make note of that, so that would be a fair compromise similar to how a logo's reputation (if notable) can be kept in said section. [[User:Camenati|Camenati]] ([[User talk:Camenati|talk]]) 20:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#:Lastly, I want to comment on the "notable rarity" issue that has been floating on my mind since this proposal came to light. Well, we have the Legacy section, and there are plenty of articles that make note of that, so that would be a fair compromise similar to how a logo's reputation (if notable) can be kept in said section. [[User:Camenati|Camenati]] ([[User talk:Camenati|talk]]) 20:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
#* Response; For a bunch of these, one can simply try and research information with it. This is going to be a bit of me throwing shade at the ones who threw in tiers only, as that's just adding in no information whatsoever, and therefore should be researched again. A disclaimer to add information can be added in to explain the lack of availability, similiar to those "stub" article disclaimers. TV idents can easily be mentioned in a similiar fashion as to test cards. One can add in where the ident usually appeared on and what time, and maybe a few exceptions. As for cinema idents, that's a hard one. The unknown logo tier could be one of the few exceptions, since that is one of the few valid tiers aside from. Maybe replace the "tier-only" availabilities with an unknown tier? Overall, the last point being the availability revamp could easily be worked upon these following issues with additional fixes, ones that I can't address as well. Great points though! [[User:VPJHuk|VPJHuk]] ([[User talk:VPJHuk|talk]]) 20:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
[[Category:Requests for Comment]]
__NOTOC__
* Response; For a bunch of these, one can simply try and research information with it. This is going to be a bit of me throwing shade at the ones who threw in tiers only, as that's just adding in no information whatsoever, and therefore should be researched again. A disclaimer to add information can be added in to explain the lack of availability, similiar to those "stub" article disclaimers. TV idents can easily be mentioned in a similiar fashion as to test cards. One can add in where the ident usually appeared on and what time, and maybe a few exceptions. As for cinema idents, that's a hard one. The unknown logo tier could be one of the few exceptions, since that is one of the few valid tiers aside from. Maybe replace the "tier-only" availabilities with an unknown tier? Overall, the last point being the availability revamp could easily be worked upon these following issues with additional fixes, ones that I can't address as well. Great points though! [[User:VPJHuk|VPJHuk]] ([[User talk:VPJHuk|talk]]) 20:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)


==Availability revamp==
==Availability revamp==
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These tables would supplement the existing availability section and would be hyperlinked from the main page. I hope this revamp would potentially make the wiki more reliable and resembles a database more than its current form. [[User:Logoarto|Logoarto]] ([[User talk:Logoarto|talk]]) 01:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
These tables would supplement the existing availability section and would be hyperlinked from the main page. I hope this revamp would potentially make the wiki more reliable and resembles a database more than its current form. [[User:Logoarto|Logoarto]] ([[User talk:Logoarto|talk]]) 01:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


EDIT: The table will be on the same page if there are only 1-5 sources. Thanks Camenati for the heads up. And to Logan, this table will only be mandatory for production logos, home media bumpers, commercial tags, boot/splashes, and film leaders. [[User:Logoarto|Logoarto]] ([[User talk:Logoarto|talk]]) 05:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
===Support===
===Support===
# {{Support}} this is one of the better ideas for this wiki that has sprung as of late. Another step towards being a proper database being made. [[User:Compooper|Compooper]] ([[User talk:Compooper|talk]]) 01:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}} this is one of the better ideas for this wiki that has sprung as of late. Another step towards being a proper database being made. [[User:Compooper|Compooper]] ([[User talk:Compooper|talk]]) 01:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}}. (Edit conflict w/ Compooper) Having seen this idea develop over the last month or so I'm quite excited about how much more comprehensive this will make us as an information source. [[File:sig.png|100px|link=User:Hb1290]] '''''[[User talk:Hb1290|Talk]]'''''&nbsp;<b>·</b>&#32;'''''[[Special:Contributions/Hb1290|Edits]]''''' 01:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}}. (Edit conflict w/ Compooper) Having seen this idea develop over the last month or so I'm quite excited about how much more comprehensive this will make us as an information source. [[File:sig.png|100px|link=User:Hb1290]] '''''[[User talk:Hb1290|Talk]]'''''&nbsp;<b>·</b>&#32;'''''[[Special:Contributions/Hb1290|Edits]]''''' 01:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}} a weak support for this one but pretty good nonetheless [[User:JrStudios|JrStudios]] ([[User talk:JrStudios|talk]]) 01:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}}. We are supposed to be an informative site. Bringing this new availability table into the mix would be a significant step up from where we currently are. [[User:Eternity Media Group|Eternity Media Group]] ([[User talk:Eternity Media Group|talk]]) 01:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
# {{Support}}, as it is a very solid compromise for the bloated Availability examples that lists too many examples. However, I think this proposal needs more fleshing out. For instance, I wouldn't agree with splitting the lists from all the pages, which includes logos that only appeared on one or a few sources. Also, if the tables have too many examples, then consider splitting them into sections for convenience. Otherwise, I am sold on this idea. [[User:Camenati|Camenati]] ([[User talk:Camenati|talk]]) 01:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} per others. [[File:T807sig.png|50px|link=User:Trevor807]] '''·''' '''[[User talk:Trevor807|Talk]]''' '''·''' '''[[Special:Contributions/Trevor807|Edits]]''' 01:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} I'm going to work almost on video games logos, with bits of film and television logos. [[User:Ashley Taylor|Ashley Taylor ft. Cure Finale (soulbond friend) and CW/RB (account manager w/ shared pet)]] ([[User talk:Ashley Taylor|talk]])
#{{Support}} Per Everyone [[User:ForcedExcess26|ForcedExcess26]] ([[User talk:ForcedExcess26|talk]]) 12:40, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} because some people like looking for logos, so I think we should still keep the names of films and/or TV shows and/or home media releases etc. where it can be found. [[User:Sonicfan19198282|Sonicfan19198282]] ([[User talk:Sonicfan19198282|talk]]) 17:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} Interesting idea, but originally I was going to put it as an oppose because this one can take longer than the other one that we are used to, but since there is no way, I will still support it. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ [[User:TPatKB|TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon)]] ([[User talk:TPatKB|this is my talk page]]) 18:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}} Lovin' this idea, since it actually at least gives us actual sources of where the logo can be found. [[User:Tabit|Tabit]] ([[User talk:Tabit|talk]]) 03:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
#{{Support}}. If nothing else, this offers a wonderful alternative, although I am worried this could also turn the section further into a collectors' guide - which might be the point, but I'm not sure. [[User:Solarstrike|Solarstrike]] ([[User talk:Solarstrike|talk]]) 03:09, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
#: Sounds like the point to me. After all, it's meant to be a database, and having a proper table replace the availability section rather than the old smattering of names the availability section had would help justify calling it a database. [[User:Chloafifteen|Chloafifteen]] ([[User talk:Chloafifteen|talk]]) 17:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

===Abstain===

===Oppose===
===Oppose===


===Comments===
===Comments===
*{{Comment}} I have already made my concerns known in private, but I'd still like to reiterate that I will personally only support this if it's made an optional inclusion on certain categories such as TV Bumpers, Cinema Trailers and Test Cards. While it makes sense (and should definitely be mandatory) for the more 'traditional' logo pages, it doesn't make sense for the aformentioned excluded categories due to their existing availability. They're either in circulation (Common), or they're no longer used (Extinct), there's not really a lot of nuance there. Again, it's a great idea on paper and '''I completely support it being implemented in certain categories''', it just needs to be made optional for the categories that don't fit well with it. [[User:LoganStuff|LoganStuff]] ([[User talk:LoganStuff|talk]]) 01:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}
[[Category:Closed Requests for Comment]]
[[Category:Passed Requests for Comment]]
[[Category:Requests for Comment]]
__NOTOC__

Latest revision as of 15:50, 2 January 2024


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